How To Overcome Fear And Build Trusted Partnerships

with special guest Moe Carrick

Patti Dobrowolski's logo
Up Your Creative Genius
How To Overcome Fear And Build Trusted Partnerships

Moe Carrick is on a mission to restore humanity to work one magnificent people leader at a time. She believes that people can and should thrive at work, and that when they do, organizations succeed. With over 30+ years of work in organizations on issues of partnership, leadership, inclusion, strategy and culture. Moe believes that rigorous self-awareness, courage, honest dialogue, curiosity, compassion, accountability, and empathy are fundamentals to building full and inclusive partnerships based on trust and generosity. Moe is Founder of Moementum, Inc. and holds a Master’s Degree in OD, is a Certified Dare to Lead™ Facilitator, a Coach, and is administrator of a variety of tools in her trade. She is author of two bestselling books, FIT Matters: How to Love Your Job and Bravespace Workplace: Making Your Company Fit for Human Life. As a white, US-born, heterosexual woman, Moe strives to use her privilege with grace to surface assumptions that interfere with teams and to explore systemic patterns.


1:32 How Patti and Moe met

2:09 Moe’s background and her life journey

11:14 Moe shares her perspective in Dare to Lead training

15:37 On the fragility of the white woman

19:52 How did COVID-19 effected Moe’s life

24:47 Things that Moe finds most fascinating to her

27:30 What does Moe sees as bright lights that shine in the future world

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Up Your Creative Genius

Patti Dobrowolski 00:03 

Hello superstars, welcome to the Up Your Creative Genius podcast, where you will gain insight and tips to stomp on the accelerator and blast off to transform your business and your life. I’m your host, Patti Dobrowolski. And if this is your first time tuning in, then strap in because this is serious rocket fuel. Each week, I interview fellow creative geniuses to help you learn how easy it is to Up Your Creative Genius in any part of your life. Hey, everybody, it’s Patti Dobrowolski with Up Your Creative Genius today, I have literally in my mind, a rock star here, Moe Carrick is here. She’s on a mission to restore humanity to work, you know, and she does that one people leader at a time, but she does way more than that. And so I’m gonna let her tell a lot about herself. But let me just say that, you know, she’s got a master’s in OD. She was trained by Brene Brown and dare to lead, she’s certified. She’s a coach. She’s working with people all around the world to help them step into their greatness really, and to make a safe workspace for other people. And you’re so amazing. You’ve got a couple of best selling books, Fit Matters: How to Love Your Job, and Bravespace Workspace. I remember when that came out. And I was so like, Well, yeah. So I know her because I met her through my partner Julie, who she was the coach at Nintendo, and came in there. And then I was grateful enough to be one of the TED speakers on when she was really running Ted in Bend, Oregon, which you still may be doing. I don’t know. But I just want to say everybody get ready, buckle in, because you’re gonna get some serious download here. Welcome, Moe. I’m so happy you’re here.

Moe Carrick 02:00. 

Oh, thank you, Patti. So good to be here. I just am so happy to be here. And I was laughing in my mind when you said and she’s certified some like certifiable, I’m certifiable. That’s for sure.

Patti Dobrowolski 02:12 

Well, you’ve made a lot of change. So you know, I definitely think we’re all certifiable. After you get to a certain age. I either lock them away, or bring them out full force. Right. And you’re full force.

Moe Carrick 02:27

Yes, that’s one way to think about it, I suppose. So happy to be here.

Patti Dobrowolski 02:31

Yeah. Cool. Well, would you tell people about yourself, you know, I just gave your shortened bio, because there were so many other pretty words. And then or bio closest with, you know, I’m a white heterosexual woman trying to make a difference in the world. I’m like, Yes, you are. You are doing some great things on behalf of white women everywhere. So thank you for that. So, all right.

Moe Carrick 02:54

So that’s white women. We got some issues, but.

Patti Dobrowolski 02:57

Oh, God, no doubt. I’m living in Texas. Can we talk about it? Can we talk about it? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it’s serious. It’s serious issues down here. Well tell us about you, tell us your story. Like where you came from? And then how did you get into doing what you’re doing now? And etc? And then I’ll ask some questions.

Moe Carrick 03:18

Thank you. So great. Well, it’s funny that question like, how did you get into what you’re doing now? Because I’ve been at it such a long time that it requires me to really go back, but it’s something I’ve talked about.

Patti Dobrowolski 03:29

30 plus years. Right?

Moe Carrick 03:32

Yeah. But I have three millennial or Generation Z children. And each of them in their own way has asked like, there are different stages and the steps on and like, you know, how did you end up? Because I think in their mind, it’s like, you just sort of magically appear of love. And it’s like, no, that’s not how it works. So because I never in my wildest dreams could have imagined doing the work that I do now. You know, do you feel that way, Patti? Like.

Patti Dobrowolski 03:57

Yeah, like, who knew? I mean, you know, I was just a baby actor trying to scrape it together being a waitress, right? So to think that this, I mean, just in terms of all the experiences, right, so you too, but where did you grow up?

Moe Carrick 04:11

Well, so I grew up on the East Coast. I was born in California, but my parents moved east when I was three. So I grew up in the Boston area. I lived in outside of Boston for most of my childhood, and I went to school in New Hampshire, New Hampshire, as they say, and I was an English major. So like, my passion was actually journalism. And also fiction. I love to read fiction and I think I had in my mind, like, someday I would write you know, the great American novel.

Patti Dobrowolski 04:38

I’m sure it’s still gonna happen. It’s still gonna happen. Trust me.

Moe Carrick 04:42

I enjoy reading it so much. And I end up reading business books, which are like nowhere near as interesting, but I was a wilderness guide. So when I was in college, like my passion was being in the outdoors and back then. I mean, there are still today, I’m sure lots of college experience programs that I had spent my summers with my dad In Yellowstone, he was an avid fly fisherman. So I grew up kind of loving the mountains of the West, living in New England, I really dreamed of, you know, going to the west. And so I started with bicycle tours. I know you’re a big cyclist. Yes, I worked for a great little company back when I was still in school called the biking expedition. Ah, we used to go right by, we used to ride right by the Ben and Jerry’s headquarters, and we would eat like a pint of Ben and Jerry’s. It was so good. But I went from there for bicycle guiding to working for Outward Bound, which I had been a student without rebound. And I really love the transformative experiences. And then I went on to work for Knowles, which is the National Outdoor Leadership School. So over a period of like, I don’t know, 10 years, I pretty much worked full time in the wilderness between college and kind of during grad school. And then after grad school, and I loved being out there with groups I loved. It’s kind of where I cut my teeth on group work. And, you know, near the end of that time, I started to feel kind of burned out, you know, living out of my car and being outside as much as I was, although I loved it. I really did love the work. The pay was, you know, a bit small, but a friend of mine, so I was in, I had enrolled in social work school, because I was therapists that work with chemically dependent kids and their families and all that work, but I was starting to kind of burn out. And so a friend of mine was studying OD, organizational development, and she was like, You should come with me to school. It’s really interesting. It’s like therapy for adults. At work? So I went to school with her for the day, like I just tagged along, and I was blown away, because I just felt like there’s this whole world of people at work, who need help, and leaders who need help figuring out like, how to make work hospitable, you know, for human life. That was back in the 80s. And so, you know, I often say we knew then what we know. Now we are not having necessarily made a lot of progress. But we’ve made some.

Patti Dobrowolski 06:57

Definitely not enough.

Moe Carrick 06:59

Yeah, not enough. But I did pivot at that point. I was like, Okay, I’m not gonna become a clinician, I’m gonna go to my master’s in OD. And then when I finished grad school, I jumped ship completely. I always joked that I turned in my back then we were like polypropylene, you know, my bonds and my polypropylene. And I put on suits, you know, back then we had like.

Patti Dobrowolski 07:20

I remember how yeah, and you had to like, and you could wear the little tie thing around your neck or not, right? Remember? It never was a man’s tie. I’d put that on and then my boss would be like, No, you’re not going out like that. I mean, I love nature hair.

Moe Carrick 07:39

I would have been great. I hated those bows. Like what do you do you put a bow like.

Patti Dobrowolski 07:45

A bow on it. Just put put a bow on. Right. So then you started to work in OD?

Moe Carrick 07:52

I did. I did. I worked in the Seattle area. But then I was in Seattle. And I was working for a company called cost dialer, which was one and yeah, it was a OD but kind of for full, you know, you take the job you can get right. So the jobs that I was training, how to use a billing system, which was not very sophisticated. OD. But it was really interesting. Because the system that we were working was on the next computer do.

Patti Dobrowolski 08:18

Oh my god, that is incredible.

Moe Carrick 08:22

We were like the only company that ever implemented anything. Jobs is the next.

Patti Dobrowolski 08:26

Yes, of course.

Moe Carrick 08:27Is we’re like this big, you know.

Patti Dobrowolski 08:29


Moe Carrick 08:29

But it was a really good job for me, like got me over the hump of you know, being in the wilderness. And then now I was in corporate America. And you know, I had a lot of negative feelings about people in corporate America, because I had come from the nonprofit social services side. And here, I found myself with these people that actually were really interesting people making change happen in the world, but they had kind of more means, you know, really.

Patti Dobrowolski 08:53

They just made money. That’s what I always tell people, you know, you want to go into corporate if you want to make money, you want to feed yourself.

Moe Carrick 09:01

Yeah, absolutely. So I made that transition and kind of worked, you know, internally for a number of years, and then in 2001 went out on my own.

Patti Dobrowolski 09:08

Oh, 2001. That’s so fantastic. I love that. Oh, that’s so great. And so now you have really evolved what you’ve done, right? I mean, you did OD before and I don’t know when I came across you maybe 2005 around there 2005 or 2006. And you were doing not traditional OD you would come and facilitate the C level leaders, right, in their off sites.

Moe Carrick 09:38

Right. A lot of offsites and a lot of I would say I was probably I was like your classic custom consultant, you know, I would come in and assess the situation, diagnose them and work with them. Often. I would work with clients for a long period of time, you know, once a year during a period of big transition. So like when I met Julie and Nintendo that’s when they went from 2 billion to 8 billion you know, when it was like Super exciting time to consult to them. And so that’s kind of what I did for a long time. Because in consulting, I always joke it was basically trading time for money.

Patti Dobrowolski 10:08

Yeah, yeah, no doubt, I would agree. I would go around the world and train people in change management. And that’s really what I did you know, but I got really good at facilitating in that experience, like you learn how to listen, well, you learn how to move people along, I think, you know, I’m probably more demand and command tyhan you are in the corporate space, because I really like an outcome at the end, because I’m drawing a picture, it’s got to look pretty, right, and got to be finished in some way. So.

Moe Carrick 10:50

Don’t you think that even Patti, like even when you’re drawing, I think one of the things I’ve always appreciated about you when I’ve seen you work, and I feel it’s like this skill that I’ve gained by accident as well, which is like you’re holding space, which you wouldn’t think you’re doing much when you’re holding space, but like it’s so big to hold space and get to that outcome or move those people forward? You’re not necessarily doing anything? No, but you’re doing so much.

Patti Dobrowolski 11:14

Well, and I think this idea of holding space, I was talking to a couple that we had dinner with and we were talking about how do we create change in terms of race and equity, and I was saying, you know, we need to actually have tolerance, and have conversations that are really uncomfortable. And you’ve gotten very good at that. I mean, that’s how I know you is that you are willing to go to the really hard places and hold space. And also help people come to, I would say their senses, but a deeper sense of what is happening in the room. So, you know, say a little bit about what you learned in the Dare to Lead training, and then also what you’ve been doing around equity and inclusion, because I think people will be very interested to hear that, from your perspective.

Moe Carrick 12:11

Thank you. Well, you know, dare to lead. And I started with my relationship with Brene Browns content when it was the daring way.

Patti Dobrowolski 12:19


Moe Carrick 12:20

And what happened to me I had one of those experiences, I’m sure you’ve had them where I read one of her books, I didn’t know who she was from BU. I had, of course been working in emotional intelligence for a long time. And then I read someone gave me one of her books, the Gifts of Imperfection.

Patti Dobrowolski 12:33


Moe Carrick 12:33

And I was like, I’m not a perfectionist, you know, come on.

Patti Dobrowolski 12:30

This isn’t gonna attract me.

Moe Carrick 12:38

No, exactly. And I read it and like four pages, and I’m like, That is me, you know, that is me. And she there was a term she used in that book that really touched me. And it was this it was hustling for worthiness, oh, worthiness. And I was like, Who is this person? Like, that’s me. I’m like, tapping.

Patti Dobrowolski 12:57

That, made me shiver. That’s how much it was, oh, yeah.

Moe Carrick 13:01

Me too. And so I started researching her. And at that time, she was, you know, certifying people in a daring way. And I went, I mean, I don’t know how I got in, I just, and it was really pretty mind blowing for me, because she was the first person that I’ve had experience with, in the space of OD work. That was a woman who was like kicking ass.

Patti Dobrowolski 13:21

She, she really, really is on her game.

Moe Carrick 13:25


Patti Dobrowolski 13:26

And there’s no BS there at all.

Moe Carrick 13:28

And there’s no there’s very few other women in our space who are doing that. Now at that time, she was like, it was mostly therapists, there were about 20 of us in my cohort that were OD and she’s like, you guys, wait, I got a book. It’s coming for you, you know. And then a few years later, Dare to Lead came out kind of slightly different body of research. And so I just moved into that work. And I still find that, you know, for me, that work now is a little bit like, you know, when you buy a new car, and you’ve never seen like a bright yellow, Volkswagen, but.

Patti Dobrowolski 13:57

Then you see it everywhere. You know, that’s the reticular activating system, you know, in action, that’s a part of your brain that it has its own Google algorithm. So when you see something, and that calls it to your brain, and that’s why I tell people put the picture of your future somewhere, you can see it every day because it taps the reticular activating system, and it’ll pull all the things in the future to you. And you’ll see them everywhere. So yeah, so I bet that then you started to see it.

Moe Carrick 14:26

Then everywhere. I feel like now in everything I do, I can’t get away from courage, vulnerability and shame. I’d like everything with her again, building shame. But I think especially in this work, you know, around diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging and justice, you know, we have to be so brave in that work. And I think, you know, being in the culture of whiteness, and in the culture of the white feminine. We have some real work to do about what it looks like to stand in grounded competence to shepherd other people’s stories to not set to ourselves, and to not be so fragile that we can’t actually get a walk through. So I think my feeling is that courage is essential for all of the hard things, you know, that we want in our lives, including partnerships with people that are different than us and effective teams and companies that can meet their mission. And it’s all kind of part of the thing. That’s why don’t deliver as much like straight here to LEED certifications, and no, no, of course not. I’m a bit cute. And ubiquity. Yeah, what I would say is that it feels like that that’s sort of like, you know, that’s sort of the compost in the ground that you stand on. Right? Yeah.

Patti Dobrowolski 15:37

And so you marinate in that, and that everything else has sprung from some of the concepts there and these other things that I know to be true about you before you did that. You know, I knew you before that time, and then I knew you after. So I think that one of the things that I’m curious about is when you talk about the fragility of the white woman say more about that, because I’m gay, and we are not fragile. I mean, we are and you can’t believe how fragile I’ve become this year. And so I’ve really cracked open into that place. But you know, that’s the myth is that the gay woman is we’re not fragile. Come on, we put up with too much. And we’re not going back. Right. But speak to that, because I think that’s interesting. I want to know more about that.

Moe Carrick 16:25

Well, yeah. And it’s funny because like, I use the word fragile in terms of how white women are often enculturated I don’t think white women, actually are fragile, like,

Patti Dobrowolski 16:34

No, correct.

Moe Carrick 16:35

Gay and straight. Like, they’re tough as nails. Right? They give birth, they raise money, they do hard things. I think what’s happened, though, and this is, you know, there’s of course, people that have researched this, like Deborah Tannen and others, and then there’s just most philosophy, right? But what I see play out over and over again, at work, but at home as well is that, you know, it has to do with how we navigate emotion. And I think men and women are acculturated really differently. Men are in culture, that there’s one emotion they can feel and express and that is.

Patti Dobrowolski 17:06


Moe Carrick 17:06

Anger. Exactly. And Jennifer Bosa, who’s a University of Florida researcher, she talks about this beautiful expression she uses, she says, you know, men have a very narrow band of masculinity. What’s acceptable to be masculine is very narrow, and it’s basically you can be pissed off, but can’t be much else. You know, Boys Don’t Cry, man up all that stuff. So we see the masculine caricature and masculine traits around emotion being really narrow. Women, white women in particular are in culture to really differently, you know, I remember as a child, none of you remember this, but I remember being given a pretty wide swath of emotional expression, I could cry, I could laugh and giggle and be funny and silly. But what I couldn’t do is be angry. Right? That’s so what we see is an acculturation of women who get a message that they should be supportive, right, the helper kind of model and they should not ever be angry. And so what happens is we subvert I think a lot of our real feelings into look like other things. Like that’s why women, people come to me at work all the time bosses, and they’ll say, you know, I don’t like meeting with women and giving hard feedback because they cry and they you know, they’re so sad and like, they’re not sad. They’re pissed.

Patti Dobrowolski 18:19

Yeah, they just express it in a different way. Right? Yeah, that’s right.

Moe Carrick 18:25

Because the question so I think what happens is and when we see what’s happening, the DEI space of course, we see white women who become woke, let’s say a white heterosexual, middle class woman becomes woke, she starts to realize, oh, man, like, I’ve been upholding patriarchy, I’m part of oppression, I didn’t know it. And they feel terrible. I mean, that feels like crap. When you start to wake up and you get shamed, triggered, you get to feel like, that means I’m not worthy. And so then we become, like, I actually call it empty vessel syndrome, which is we become completely clear, like we go from being well educated, intelligent, articulate women to like, I know nothing.

Patti Dobrowolski 19:03


Moe Carrick 19:03

And we turn to black and brown people, to gay people, to queer people and trans people and disabled people. And we basically say, I know nothing. You tell me everything.

Patti Dobrowolski 19:12

Instead of instead of Oh, educate yourself. Find out, have a hard conversation, but not asking somebody to do it for you.

Moe Carrick 19:24

Exactly. And also notice your own story. Yeah. It’s your own story. And I mean, I can really I don’t think I even knew I was white until I was 24, which is kind of late like you’d think that would be.

Patti Dobrowolski 19:34


Moe Carrick 19:35

Getting in touch with my heterosexuality took me a few more years after that.

Patti Dobrowolski 19:39

Yeah, like,

Moe Carrick 19:40

Oh, I’m freak. I’m white. I’m middle class. That’s who I am. And so what does that mean to how I show up more? Because if we can’t be grounded in our own identity, we can’t partner.

Patti Dobrowolski 19:52

Oh, it’s so true. And I think that most of us, we don’t spend time thinking about that, you know, recently I had to look at you know, the non binary whole thing that’s happening in the world? And I thought, Well, I’ve always been non binary. I mean, do I need to change my pronouns? Do I need to come out as trans? Do I need to, I had to, like, investigate these things for myself, because otherwise, I was making assumptions that I was going to stay the same. And that’s not how we grow and change. And that really was hard, and it ripped me open. And I ever have memories, you know, from very young, and I thought, wow, this is life at its best. And I know, from a spiritual perspective, you know, my essence, it was like, Yes, we’re having this experience, you’re freaking out. I love this, because that means you’re going to crack open and be more love. Right. And I think that’s part of what we have during COVID Is that we have this cracking open, and this going inward, which we haven’t had in a long time. And so say what you have experienced during COVID? Because I’m curious, like, how did it impact you, your business? Your family?

Moe Carrick 21:07

It’s been tough. It’s been tough for all of us. You know, for me, I call it the great tie off, because I watched my business just Yeah, off the calendar, you know, March of 2021. Like, oh, oh my God. Now I have four employees, I have zero revenue, like, what are we gonna do? Like, I’ve always traveled for work. That’s, you know, been how I had gigs set up for a year in advance, and that just all died. And I did panic. I mean, I was like, what does this mean? But I also knew that my team was depending on me, you know, so I went into just some shame, like I was sitting with, I’m not worthy. I’m too old to pivot this business. I don’t know what that looks like. And then I kind of God, you know, I spoke about that with some people that can handle my unworthiness, you know, and, and got it together enough to talk to my team. And I basically said, you know, I don’t know how we’re going to survive this, but I know that we are, I had one team member that was out on maternity one, that’s Canadian who had just come back just under the, you know, so. Yeah, so we had to reinvent the business, which was hard and scary. You know, 2020 was definitely a revenue dip. 2021 bounce back really strong, because we moved more to a program model, you know, stuff.

Patti Dobrowolski 22:16

Yeah, stuff online.

Moe Carrick 22:17

Yeah. Which is not anywhere near as connecting, but it’s had some beautiful upsides. Like, I just love being in my own town, you know, do the hobbies that I have, like, I just love that. But I also have it you know, these three kids I mentioned, it’s been hard on them. You know, I had one that was a freshman when COVID hit, they are really just beginning to come out of that anxiety place. I’ve got, you know, we have recovery in our family. It’s been hard emotionally on all of us. And

Patti Dobrowolski 22:46

kind of, and you lost your mom in the middle of this.

Moe Carrick 22:49

Yes, we lost my mom and my father in law we had to. My other one was from COVID. But I think we had lucky with my mom. I mean, not lucky, it’s horrible that she died. But we were lucky in the sense that we could be there. You know, my father in law was not we weren’t able to visit, you know, and I just think that was really hard for my husband and his widow and stuff. And, and yeah, that took up a lot of my 2021 was caring for my mom who had my mom had, what do they call it? It’s basically medication induced dementia, she had a broken wrist, and then a broken hip and all the narcotics brought her dementia on full force. I didn’t even know that was a thing. And so she, you know, my mom’s worst fear was to lose her mind in a passive care setting. And that’s exactly what happened. So for me, I was grateful that I was her caregiver, I could be here with her and with her when she died, but, you know, that changes your point of view. So I feel like it’s been a transformative period, but also a scary period. And then, of course, on the worksite. And I know a lot of your listeners are in some transition, and we’re seeing what everybody’s calling the great resignation. I call it the great reframe, you know, yeah, me too. Yeah, they’re looking at work. They’re like, what?

Patti Dobrowolski 24:01

You want to pay me what? To do? What I’d rather start my own business, right?

Moe Carrick 24:06

Absolutely. Like, wait a minute, this shouldn’t suck. And that’s what I’ve always said, like workplace should not stop.

Patti Dobrowolski 24:12

That’s right. That’s what you’re all about. Yeah. And you should feel good.

Moe Carrick 24:16

You should feel good. And so for employers and employees alike, for me, it’s it’s a wonderful time to re to really reshape our relationship with work. And of course, it’s hard, very difficult to do in a capitalist society. But I find myself energized by the stories I’m seeing and the way companies I mean, I feel bad for business leaders, because they’re like, oh, but on the other hand, they’re having to change fundamentally, the cultures that they create in order to be better for people.

Patti Dobrowolski 24:46

Well, yeah, and to retain there are people I think this has been the biggest challenge and people will say, we can’t keep people I go, Well, you can’t keep it well, because you don’t have a good workplace environment. And why don’t you have that because you never really spent the time to build that, and that takes attention, focus, love, courage, all those things that you talked about. And then once you have those, and you want to have a good product to whatever it is, if you’re in that kind of a service industry or a product industry, that has to be good, too. And then your customers have to be happy and everything’s changed so much. It’s so up in the air that I wonder, you know, when you think about the work that you’re doing now, what is it that most fascinates you? Because the thing that catches your attention? You say, Yeah, more of that. I want to do more of that.

Moe Carrick 25:35

Well, I love that question so much. I think there’s two things. One is like, I am really captivated by young leaders. You know, like, I’m a baby boomer, and we are acids are entering this workforce, you know, and it is time but we have not nor have the generation xers we’ve not done a good job handing off the baton. And it’s time. It’s time. So I see these young people coming in with so many more skills at inclusion.

Patti Dobrowolski 26:03

I know well, just smarter.

Moe Carrick 26:06

They’re smarter.

Patti Dobrowolski 26:07

They are like whole people,

Moe Carrick 26:09

They’re whole people, they’re flexible, they’re curious, you know, they have a global perspective, that is mind blowing. So to me, that’s super exciting. And my team is young. And I’m so grateful for that. Because I mean, they kind of treat me a little bit like the wise old elder. And I struggle a little bit with even some of the technologies that we use. I’m like, wait, tell me about notion or slack? Like, what do I do? You know, but I’m learning. So I think young people is just a huge a huge thing for me. The other thing that’s exciting for me, but it’s also kind of terrifying is a lot of our clients. So as you know, my company was a B Corp for many years, we didn’t let that go in 2021, just because it’s a lot of work to keep it going. But we have a real passion for business as a force for good. So we’ve always gravitated more towards private companies, because the public company Leadership Challenge is just so untenable. I mean, you just can’t make money up into the right over and over. That’s not the natural world war.

Patti Dobrowolski 27:01


Moe Carrick 27:02

So we do work. And in COVID, we’ve worked a lot in both healthcare and education.

Patti Dobrowolski 27:07


Moe Carrick 27:07

And those systems from a, you know, systems thinker in a leadership perspective, they are so broken.

Patti Dobrowolski 27:14

I was gonna say broken, and but I didn’t know if I could get it out of my lips. Because they are and me too. That’s where I’ve been healthcare and working with education because it is broken.

Moe Carrick 27:25

But people are not broken.

Patti Dobrowolski 27:27

Oh, no, the people aren’t.

Moe Carrick 27:28

The systems are broken.

Patti Dobrowolski 27:30

It’s devastatingly broken. So yes. And I think to get into that, like, like, that’s a whole topic unto itself, because there are some amazing people that are working to heal that so that it is for the neurodiverse child. And that’s what needs to happen. You know, and I think that people don’t understand that they think, oh, you know, they’re artistic. They’re not going to be I mean, like, look, this is the world we live in now. Right? We messed up the food chain. We fed people to food, and then it shows up in these ways. And we think, Well, how did that happen? Well, yeah. Okay. So you know, these are the ripple effects of it. But I wonder when you think about that, when you envision the future of what you’re going to be doing, and what you see out there, the bright light out there, not that bright light, but the bright lights of the really amazing world that we’re going to step into, what do you see as part of it?

Moe Carrick 28:36

Well, I would say probably two main things that I see when I dream ahead, right. One is leaders who are Through and Through good for people. Yeah, like and you’ve used the word love a couple of times, Patti today, and I love that you’re using that word, because, for me, that’s what leadership at its best is all about. It’s like leaders who have the capacity to open their heart create real connection. And I don’t mean just leader by positional authority. I think of even a leader in the classroom, my son is substitute teaching, and he told me the story yesterday about a little boy, he was in second grade, this little boy had a scab on his knee. And he said he had to go see the nurse, but the nurse was on break. So my son took him for a walk. And he said, Tell me, how bad is your pain? scab on his knee? Not an open. My son said it’s a one to 10 You know, and he said it’s definitely 10. And he was like, well, let’s talk about that. They’re really like, what about if you actually broke your leg? That might be more but then you know, but what I what struck me about that is that, in this case, leader, my son, substitute teacher had an opportunity for 15 minutes to make a difference to a little boy who’s nice, gab was the most important thing for him. And I think that you know, so when I get excited about the future of the workplace, I think about leaders at every single level who actually have the capacity to love and to connect, not an That unhealthy HR way, but like in a real way that activates the greatness of people. Like that’s mind bogglingly exciting to think about. And the other piece, I think, is that people have lives that work that human beings in every sector, including the really dirty, hard, ugly jobs, that they to actually have a life that works. Because we need, you know, we need people to show our horses, and to clean out our drains and serve food, we need those people. But we act like they are not people.

Patti Dobrowolski 30:31

Yeah, people act like they are slaves. Really, that’s what’s true. We just treat them like that coming in the house and do the thing by see you later. And I remember one of the great things that I learned living in New York, from the woman that I lived with, there was our production stage manager. And she tipped everybody. And, you know, I took that to heart. And so when ever anybody brings something to our house, I tip them, because they need to know that I appreciate them. And that I’m not going to take them for granted at minimum wage. And I think that if minimum wage stays where it is, and we continue to treat people like that, just because they don’t look like us. They assume they don’t have the education we do, or that they’re just in a job like that. I mean, I did those jobs. I know you did, too. We did those jobs, we cleaned people’s houses. So you know, it’s not that far in the past. And if you’ve never had that experience, go clean somebody’s house and see how you like it. Right? You have to really have compassion and empathy for what people are doing to make your life easier. Yes, during COVID, you got to really see that I think, you know,

Moe Carrick 31:45

And these health care workers, you know, like, they’re just dealing with such bad behavior, oh, waitresses, and waiters who are just getting sexually harassed. Like, we just have a lot.

Patti Dobrowolski 31:56

I was thinking about the flight attendants to where people are getting disruptive on the plane, I’m like, please, people sit down. They are not your mother, or father or whoever beat you up, or whatever happened to you that before you came into this plane, please, please just relax.

Moe Carrick 32:12

Yeah, yeah. And be compassionate, you know, for ourselves and for others. You know, it seems when I say it out loud, I even look at myself, you probably do this to Kylie. Sometimes I’m like, Oh, God, no, you’re just in your mind or like in la-la land, you know, but I really am not like I really believe that, that workplaces can be fit for human life, and that there’s a place for everyone. You know, there is a place for every worker to bring their good stuff and have it activated. And I just think that we’ve lost our ability to kind of acknowledge Yeah, in my own sight. Oh, there.

Patti Dobrowolski 32:46

Yeah. I love that. I think that when we think about the future, what we would want for myself, I think, oh, you know, even I’m listening to myself, just like the last two minutes. And I think, yeah, you better like work on that. Because that seems like you’re like running some sort of program in there. So drop that. And see if you can’t drop into a space where you can empathize for both sides here. For the people who can’t step up, and the people who can, and the people who are on the receiving end. I mean, I think that that’s what it calls on us is to raise our emotional intelligence so high, that we are look first to see and then look less to judge, look less to judge what’s happening in yourself or somebody else, to calm yourself down. You know, do whatever PQ Rep Positive Intelligence thing you can do to get yourself from the back to the front. And, you know, and then step around, apologize, say what’s true. And so if I offended anyone who’s listening today, by what I said, or I didn’t say the right thing, I just want to apologize in advance and you could write me an email, you know, but I am with Moe. And so she’s about creating momentum. And so when you think about creating momentum in the world, what kind of momentum are you interested in creating and what would you tell other people about how they can create momentum?

Moe Carrick 34:15

Yeah, it’s interesting, because I’ve noticed and COVID is like, brought this up even more for me, Patti, but like, I definitely narrowed my focus I become more capable of claiming that my theater is work. Like it’s work you know, it’s the world of work is the one that captivates me in all sectors, but in some like we’ve talked like in particular.So for me, part of what momentum means is like being able to keep our selves grounded, even when work is not that fun. Because there’s still value that we can add and I did a social media posted something about this a couple weeks ago was really interesting kind of attention. It was about how I think that it’s BS that we incur Young people were starting to follow their passion. One of my staff members said to me, we were talking about it. And she said, Well, the reason we do that is that our mothers told us that we this is a generation.

Patti Dobrowolski 35:10

That’s right.

Moe Carrick 35:10

Yeah, yeah, our mother told us we could do anything we wanted, that we should hold out until we, you know, found our passion. And I’m like, Yeah, but that’s cool. Because like, you put my past.

Patti Dobrowolski 35:20

You can’t hold out that long. It’s not gonna magically appear, you got to work your way up the ladder. And that’s right.

Moe Carrick 35:28

My passion is to fulfill my life, like I love you’ve probably seen I write all the time about my horse, who I love and all that I’m never gonna make money as a horse person, like, I’m not that good, you know, but I can indulge that passion. And so I think sometimes we have to put ourselves in the mindset of saying, Okay, this job, or this life circumstance, or this city I’m living in isn’t maybe my highest and best right now. But it’s putting me forward, it’s giving me a thing that says that I’m learning that I’m growing, that I’m meeting new people, and it’s gonna lead me to a different thing. So I think that’s for me, what we’re meant to me is like being able to tolerate this somewhat uncomfortable now, for the sake of what is coming. What it will bring for us, you know,

Patti Dobrowolski 36:10

Tolerate the somewhat uncomfortable now, with the knowledge that something great is coming. Right may not be now, but wow, that is, that is deep, that’s boom, Mic drop. I mean, it really, it really is, because no matter what age you are, or where you are in your career, or your life, you know, it’s not always pretty, I think this is the thing, the myth that we get fed is that, you know, you have this thing, and then it becomes this thing. And it’s like, magnificent, and then it remains there. But in fact, that’s not how the world works. It goes like this up and down, and up and down, and up and down. And that resiliency really is key. If you can be resilient to change, you got it. That’s it, and that even resiliency changes and the level and degree, and all the hard places inside of yourself.

Moe Carrick 37:06

Well, yes, and Patti, I’ve been doing a lot of work on resilience, as I’m sure you have. And I looked up the word, I don’t know, year ago, whatever. And I was really interested to find out that it’s a physics term that describes when metal in particular gets deformed. Like it’s about our ability to bounce to retake our previous shape, you know, when we get bent out of it. And I think that.

Patti Dobrowolski 37:28

When we get bent out of our shape, you get your hearing that right? When you get bent out of shape. So you can reform.

Moe Carrick 37:36

Bend to reform, and it may not be the same. In fact, it probably isn’t going to be the same when can be done with my co author on my first book Fit Matters: How to Love Your Job, when we were researching our book, one of the things that we thought was a brilliant idea then, and I still do now was that we realized in our interviews in our research that we did identify seven things that people need from work. And those seven things are temporarily sensitive. They change over time.

Patti Dobrowolski 38:02

Yeah, they changed over time.

Moe Carrick 38:03

What I needed when I was 20 is really different than what I need now at 60. And to me, there’s just so much grace, in like, acknowledging and be able to say, you know, wow, right now, this is meeting my needs, because it’s allowing me to blank, whatever, and it won’t be forever. It will only be for now.

Patti Dobrowolski 38:23

And what, what a great way of approaching things, I think, is to realize that for this moment, right now, you’re in a space where this works. But that space will be transitory. So be sure to appreciate everything that you’re experiencing good, bad, indifferent, right? So I can’t wait to talk to you again. And I just love you so much. I respect you so much. I’m just in this conversation, I think of the other conversations we’ve had and how I’ve grown and changed as a result of listening to you. And so for those of you that are listening, you know, be sure to connect with Moe, she has one of the best posts almost every day you post something right? And they’re so interesting, and they take you on a journey. So if you want to evolve and change and be a better leader, you know, follow Moe Carrick because she’ll get you some momentum, that’s for sure.

Moe Carrick 39:26

Well, thank you, Patti. And I want to count right back at you because you have been a real inspiration for me, always, ever since I’ve known you all those years ago. Because of the visual nature of your work. We use digital recording in our work, you’ve trained my people, and it’s changed everything about how we think and when you launch your podcast, which I’m so honored to be part of. It really is hard for me because I tried to start a podcast in 2020 I interviewed three famous people and then I never launched them. It’s like I’m so embarrassed, but I just didn’t have it together. Like I was not ready, and then I’ve been following your podcast and I just, it’s only a few months ago, I said to my team, okay, we’re launching the podcast and it doesn’t have to be perfect. Like, just go do it, you know. So you’re truly inspiring. And it’s especially inspiring for like, that the expression you use of creative genius, like a really that deeper work. That takes us some time to get there. But it’s so important. And for me, you know, as someone who has plenty of things to occupy my mind, I can easily fritter away my creative genius on stupid things. But to really tune in and be like, no, actually no, hang in there. The good stuff is coming is really powerful. And you inspire me to be.

Patti Dobrowolski 40:38

Oh, thank you so much. Well, I just think that this is the time the time is now. And the opening is now for all of us to step into more of our creative genius. There’s no better time than now to start your business to change how you are as a leader to, you know, make friends with people you never thought you would to move to a country. You know, I was gonna say a country, but to a state where you never thought you’d live right? This is the time to do it and know that you can do it. And so I thank you for this time together. And I look forward to doing this again, because this is going to be so fun. All right.

Moe Carrick 41:15

Thanks, Patti.

Patti Dobrowolski 41:16

All right. Talk to you soon, Moe. All right, everybody, you know the drill, please follow Mo and you know, in the show notes, you’ll see all of her social media that you can get in on what she’s doing because she’s amazing. Okay, until next time Up Your Creative Genius. Let’s do this. Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to DM me on Instagram your feedback or takeaways from today’s episode on Up Your Creative Genius. Then join me next week for more rocket fuel. Remember, you are the superstar of your universe and the world needs what you have to bring. So get busy. Get out and Up Your Creative Genius. And no matter where you are in the universe, here’s some big love from yours truly Patti Dobrowolski and the Up Your Creative Genius Podcast. That’s a wrap.

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